Are you passionate about designing health gamification projects that truly make a difference? In Series 3 Episode 4 of Health Points, Pete & Ben explore the world of behavioral science, data-driven design, and real-world impact with Dr. Jacqui Nortje. An expert whose journey spans from applied mathematics to leading gamification initiatives at Discovery and earning a PhD on goal framing in gamification.
What Makes This Episode a Must-Listen?
Dr. Nortje’s story is a masterclass in bridging theory and practice. She shares how Discovery’s “Active Rewards” program has evolved over a decade, now engaging over 700,000 members and supporting healthier lifestyles through personalized, data-verified incentives. You’ll hear firsthand how a simple weekly goal-and-reward system grew into a sophisticated ecosystem, integrating wearables, dynamic goals, and a virtual currency marketplace—all while maintaining a strong focus on health outcomes and ethical design.
Key Takeaways for Health & Gamification Professionals:
- Personalization at Scale: Learn how Discovery tailors goals and rewards to diverse populations, from ultra-marathoners to those just starting their health journey, and adapts for age, chronic conditions, and changing abilities.
- Data-Driven Iteration: Discover the power of using gamification not just to motivate, but to generate rich behavioral data—enabling continuous improvement and evidence-based design decisions.
- Balancing Motivation: Dr. Nortje unpacks the delicate balance between extrinsic (rewards, incentives) and intrinsic (autonomy, mastery, relatedness) motivation, drawing on self-determination theory and her own research on goal framing.
- Sustainability & Ethics: Explore the challenges of keeping long-term programs engaging without over-relying on incentives, and how to avoid unintended consequences like disengagement or unhealthy behaviors.
- Real-World Impact: Hear about measurable improvements in physical activity, healthy eating, and biometric outcomes, plus the business case for shared value—where healthier members mean lower insurance claims and greater loyalty.
Why Listen Now?
If you’re looking to improve the design and implementation of your own health gamification projects, this episode is packed with actionable insights. Dr. Nortje’s experience shows how thoughtful, evidence-based gamification can drive real behavior change, support diverse user needs, and create lasting value for both individuals and organizations.
👉 Tune in to get inspired, learn best practices, and take your health gamification projects to the next level!
You can listen to this episode below:
Episode Transcript:
Ben
Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of Health Points where we talk about anything and everything, gamification and health. I'm Ben and here with me is my co-host Pete.
Pete
Hi everyone and don't forget to subscribe and don't miss out on any other episodes.
Ben
And with us today we have Doctor Jacqui Nortje who plunged into the world of behavioural science in 2015, where her fascination with gamification took off, what started as a spark of curiosity became a full blown passion leading to pursuing a PhD. At Wits Business School on the effects of goal framing in gamification. Jacqui, it's fantastic to have you on the show today.
Jacqui
Thank you so much for having me.
Ben
Right. I'd be great to start. Can you tell us about your background and how you ended up working on gamification at Discovery?
Jacqui
Absolutely. So it's quite an interesting story. When I started studying and, you know, pursued my career and I started in applied mathematics and the goal was to become a lecturer. But when I finished my masters and at the time there were two of us. Who submitted the one person was just a little bit ahead of me, so he ended up getting the lecturing position and I was was left. To decide what to do next. And so while I was mulling over if I should study further and carry on and with with applied mathematics, I looked around for work applied to a few places and I got a a role at Discovery and from there. I decided to pause the applied maths. Research and just because it was, it was very theoretical, very statistical and not quite aligned with where my interests were anymore and and then in.
So that was I started discovery in 2013 and then in 2015, our research and development teams. So at Discovery we have there's the health insurer, which is where I started and then our health and Wellness company vitality and the two of them work very closely together. And 2015, the two teams decided to to do a bit of an experiment. And create a combined R&D team so that the health and Wellness portion and the insurance portion could collaborate a bit more. Closely. And they put out a wide call for for new blood new analysts and I, I applied, interviewed and got the the position. And that was that was absolutely pivotal for me because until then I was very in quant very in the numbers side. Things and 2015 was my first exposure to behavioural science, so until then I'd always understood the numbers behind. But what we were doing but not I wasn't close to the client side and the benefits.
And in 2015, our active rewards programme went live, and that's I was very closely involved from the beginning, and that's sort of our big gamification push into increasing physical activity for members and that. That was amazing. It was really cool seeing how how you can take technology and how you can take behavioural science principles and data and create a really meaningful platform for people. And in 2019 I decided I I needed. I needed to challenge myself and try something a little bit different and the PhD idea had always it was always stuck in the back of my mind. And and in 2019, I decided to do a shift from from the quant into a pure gyrification behavioural science topic. And that's where I did my my PhD through the Business School I finished last year, I submitted at the start of the year and graduated last year. Remember. So I just still very fresh in my mind. My supervisor and I are pushing hard to publish a few articles and put together a few short courses while the momentum is going.
Ben
Incredible to go from from mathematics to behavioural science, and I'm sure there's many similarities in the pattern, record pattern and behaviours and as well within that. And also being part of what has become such a huge example of in gamification of of health insurance based rewards on physical activity. That's incredible. So. Tell us about how gamification is is being used at discovery.
Jacqui
Our biggest example of gamification is definitely active rewards and and so if I say it's active, rewards has three components to it, and each component supports the three serve insurance composites. So we have the physical activity side which is supports our health business. Then there's a a driving component to encourage people to drive well, not use your phone while driving all those brilliant habits to support the the car insurance business. And then there's a. Financial component with vitality money to help people spend responsibly. And so active rewards. I mean that's what it is now in 2025 supporting the three businesses, the three pillars, but it started in 2015 with physical activity, just focusing on a single behaviour and that's where my where my involvement is and also where my interest is.
And and it's it is a very at its core, it is, it is quite a straightforward game. It is a weekly cycle of being physically active. If you achieve your goal at the end of the week, you get a reward. But that reward component has changed quite a bit over the last 10 years. When it went live, it was a very and maybe to go into both detail on how people can achieve their goal and so the vitality points, the vitality programme is based on a points. Structure as I talk you, there's just gamification everywhere. Like points and statuses and levels and and. But yeah, I guess it's part of our DNA.
But the point structure, each activity that you do can earn. You have set number of points and the the value is determined. How? On the impact it has on improving your your health and lifespan, so I'm going for a walk and earning steps is is a lower points allocation than you know going for a run which has a bigger impact on your cardiovascular health. And again, the duration and intensity also impacts. So every week you have a point score and then as you exercise, you fill up a little ring and the end you get your little trophy and your your reward and and it's it's personalised which is quite nice. We're not expecting everyone to be running marathons. Every week, but at the same time, if that is your vibe, the goal does does push you.
And so, as I said at the beginning, it was very binary. If you achieved your goal, you could choose between a coffee or a smoothie and and that has just. I mean I think we. We've single handedly like increased the caffeine consumption of some member base and then over the time we we upped the game elements. So now in its current iteration you can either choose between an instant reward which again is like the coffee and the smoothies or you can. Choose to play on a game board and each tile reveals our virtual currency, and then you can use it in our in our mall. And depending on how many products you have that's spending ability becomes just more valuable. Yeah, it's it's been a pretty it's a pretty, it's a pretty nifty little ecosystem. Even if I I might be biassed though.
Pete
That's really interesting. How does Discovery go about tracking those activities and making sure the players have some way of delivering the data to you to know whether? They've hit those goals.
Jacqui
That's a brilliant point. So we and I think that is the strength of our programme, is everything is based on verified data, so Members have, if they have a wearable device, so like an Apple Watch, they can, they can connect it to us and then we get the data. Straight from them and to support members because we know that a wearable device helps enable the game. We have a a benefit, a device benefits. UM, so that makes it a bit more accessible, and we also allow people to link their phones if they just want to track steps. And then we have, we have a gym part, we've got two big retail partners in South Africa and we've partnered with them so members can get a, a gym discount. And then we also get. You get the the swipe INS as the person goes and then we locate.
Pete
Can you tell me a little bit more about what the device benefit is? Is that like getting the? Devices for them.
Jacqui
So we have a few versions of it, the one that's most closely related to active rewards is Mr Apple Watch benefits, and Members can essentially get an Apple Watch for free as long as they exercise. So you pay an upfront activation fee, but other than that, nothing. And then every month if you achieved all your goals, there's no payment. If you've achieved fewer goals, you pay a portion, and that's over 2 years. So it's kind of like taking it out on contract. And it's so lovely because you we've taken away the initial barrier of exercising, which is it's so it's so important when designing interventions, you have to address people's barriers and and because you know, if you know, meet your goals, you have to pay a monthly fee. It's a very strong incentive to to keep exercising.
Ben
Fantastic. And it reminds me of the first episode. We have series 3 around the kind of the role of gamification versus financial incentivization. This whole idea also you're you're being monitored like someone, someone's reviewing you, so it's. Not it's you.
Speaker
Hmm.
Ben
You're accountable to someone else, and there's a load of parallels there. Also within the coffee consumption, I'm sure there's an issue with over coffee consumption, but I'm pretty sure the last review I read on coffee that it has protective effects at at the appropriate level for liver disease. Stuff. So there's a balance there to over consumption versus moderate consumption. So I'm sure you're helping people with the coffee consumption somewhere. What you mentioned also was that the option to either have that instant reward or almost a delayed gratification. And so with the currency, people can collect and the games they can play. It's a game within a game. And then what do those potential prizes look like and what does it gain when? How do you use that currency to unlock more prizes and rewards?
Jacqui
So the the currency is and this is again where our our bank product supports the whole platform quite nicely is if you so you can spend. So we call Discovery Miles and you can spend your miles on online in online stores at certain retailers. If you travel, you can spend your your miles on your your flights, and for the Members who who don't have bank, it's a slightly smaller mall that we've curated for them, and it's essentially a way of accessing vouchers at a lower cost. So UMA person can UM. It's it's about a 15 percent, 10 to 15% discount on the Rand value, which is it's quite nice and we one of the things that we've done and it's something that I love with love about gamification is we have almost like little seasons through the year and campaigns through the year.
So one of the new things that we've brought in is rewards Wednesday. So every Wednesday there's a a special discount like a few weeks ago it was on one of our bookstores. So I it was very quick to grab that one getting a book for next to nothing. So it is, it's quite that's quite a fun. Way of making the the currency more valuable and again depending on how integrated you are into our product houses, you can monetize it, you can spend it on things like on airtime data.
So it's it's quite. It's quite versatile in that, so one of the big things for us is. If you have a fixed reward, if that reward doesn't appeal to someone, there's no reason for them to engage. So, for example, if if you don't shop at a certain retailer offering them a voucher at that retailer, it doesn't you you then relying solely. On the intrinsic motivation, not not that extra little boost that that the game reward provides, whereas with a virtual currency where you can spend a host of retailers and where the value is in the the discount that we've sort of contracted for on the behalf of the Member. Just every person, every person playing the game, has access to rewards that that they find valuable. So again it enhances it, enhances that personalization of the platform.
Pete
I'm fascinated by the use of rewards in these systems, and particularly in health. So does your team have, like a process where you review what rewards are available so that it still supports health? So there's not? Just like I've ordered a year supply of doughnuts and undone all the good work.
Jacqui
Absolutely no. The partners have to fit in with our our values and what we're trying to do. So one of the one of the rewards that we have on the the marketplace is like a striver Subs. Action, which is it's quite a. It's quite popular amongst our runners and and like I said, like the the Apple Watch directly supports peoples peoples lifestyle changes. So except for like travel which is a very leisure focused reward, everything else does. Tap into health and Wellness in some way.
Ben
So looking at the design of the game mechanics you now have within the rewards programme. How have you got to the point of optimising that your backgrounds in mathematics and quant like how did you work through the process to identify the right gear mechanics? How has it been iterated and evolved over time like do you have feedback loops that's been forming or decision making on the implementation of which mechanic at which time and which reward at which? This season, how have you gone about? There's an organisation and the team.
Jacqui
So that's it's quite interesting when we when we originally launched active rewards. It was a bit of a gamble, I guess because up until that point we hadn't done anything like that before and I think that's also why we kept the game quite simple as a bit of a a proof. Of concept to see. If it if it worked and and there we relied quite strongly on. Like the MDA framework, mechanics, dynamics and aesthetics. And and we honed in on the idea of a goal because everyone is quite comfortable. The idea that goals help, and that's also why I studied it so strongly in my why why there was such a big focus for me in my thesis is we know that goals work like there's enough, there's enough. Evidence supporting it and now just pulling it into into the game side of things and pulling it into physical activity.
So the initially iteration of the game was quite. It was like a mix of of of actuaries and says Sessions. Looking at this and going, hmm, yeah, this seems like it'll work and you know, reading a few articles and things and but then as we got experience in the game and I think that to your point, having a background in quants. It's so valuable with things like this because it enables you to look at the experience and and look at trends and identify the opportunities. But before the game was around, we we didn't have the same data source that we have now the same. That's it. And and I that is something that I I enjoy talking about a lot is gamification is such a great way of generating data. So before the game we we had very little, very limited experience of people's physical activity patterns because it wasn't really a strong incentive for them to track. So our pre-game. The game analysis phase was a lot of assumptions. Assuming behaviour change. Assuming you know based on how we were, how we thought about the design, do we think it'll generate X amount of lift? And and that.
But then once the game was live and we could see people engaging and we could see which which cohorts were engaging and which weren't, you know, how how rewards utilisation was looking, we could see and especially so just before just before 2018, we're also expanding the platform to bring in the other two behaviours. So we realise that if you if every week people are earning 3 coffees or three smoothies they they're going to just get tired of it. So it was a lot. So a lot of our enhancements are to make sure that the game stays sustainable.
Speaker
Well.
Jacqui
And exciting. It's something that I that I also touched on briefly and my research is. Once people get used to games and use some mechanics, they they get it. They get tired of it and there is a risk that they that they disengage. So what we try to do is make changes to keep the game. Engaging, exciting without just throwing more incentives at people because that that also that doesn't, that's not a good way of ensuring sustainability and and also making sure that we keep people on the journey with us. So we're quite capable about how frequently we make changes and we balance. Big material changes like platform shifts with small, you know, new reward partners or fan, you know, skins on the game board and things like that.
So it is, it's a it's a mix of quant analysis looking at how Members engaging but is also looking at the game mechanics themselves. Seeing what what behaviour do we want to draw? If and, then what mechanics would be well suited to driving those behaviours, because I think especially something like physical activity, you have such a range of of players, you have people who have never exercised a day in their lives and you need to give them something that helps. Builder habits and keep them motivated. But on the other end of the spectrum, you have your ultra marathon runners who. They they demand recognition because, like they, they are ultra players, they they they need to be recognised as such. So we we're very careful to understand which mechanics would appeal to which cohorts without driving unintended consequences.
Pete
That's really interesting. Can I ask a little bit about demographics? Because I'm thinking now that you've done it for 10 years? At first with gamification, people like they they love the stats, they love getting better at stuff and like running a bit faster, running a bit further. But obviously you've got an ageing population and there's a point at which you can't get any better. Have you started to see that in the data yet? How are you helping maintain people's activity levels as they get? Older.
Jacqui
So that's that is such a lovely question and is our overall programme does address that as well. So once a person reaches a certain age, their goal progression does change a little bit and their goal Max is out at a lower points cap and we also open up new points learning activities or categories for older populations we have similar. Structures for chronic lives and and it's also so it's funny, I think some of our most engaged people are. Actually. In the the 60 plus group it's it's amazing and but also and you mentioned we are 10, we are 10 years old this year our population is just over 700,000 lives and what's lovely is. We're not losing people along the way, and people who started on active rewards are still still engaging on active rewards.
One of the recent enhancements that we brought out, I think we launched it in 2020. Two and we introduced Centurion shirts, so once you reach certain milestone gold streaks, you get a a really nicely branded T-shirt. So this year we will have a handful of people earning their 500 gold shirts, and we'll make a Big Bang. Hopefully do something really cool for them, but yeah it is. And. It is important to keep peoples the the players in mind with these types of things and I think that's why we've got quite a range of of features built into the game. So for people who exercise infrequently. The the Game board is good enough. They enjoy it, they enjoy earning their miles, spending on on vouchers. But then as you get more plugged into the game, it's it's a bit of a like a a surprise and delight. Revealing new features overtime for members, so there's there's like a way to earn sneak peaks. There's a way to earn miles multipliers. There's the gold streaks and I think that helps. Those features help address. So the the programme itself helps address the demographics. So making sure that there are enough. Point earning activities appropriate to the population, but then the features themselves also speak to different personas.
Ben
There was a lot in there. Big thing for me that came out was varieties and the spice of life is the is the spice of game mechanics and people. People get bored. And we have such a range of players from from Ultra Marathon runners, to counts to 1K, let alone catch, to 5K players. How do you make it appropriate for them? The integration of dynamic goals and dynamic points caps also linked to age and health condition. So many hundreds of thousands of people engaged over the last 10 years. Is. How do you approach looking at what is your design process to new game features and functions over that last 10 years? How have you approached that as a design team?
Jacqui
So our R&D cycle and. And I think the big thing for us with active rewards, because it is one of our big benefits, it does get a lot of at. So we we keep in touch with it almost like a product health from a product health perspective. So we have really great dashboards that the analytics teams have put together for us. So we can see what is going, what does average engagement look like. Points earning redemption so we can keep an idea. We can keep a very close eye on the the product health. But because it is also quite a big strategic product for us, when there are changes in the rest of the programme, we check to see if it makes sense to do any active rewards updates. But our our product cycle.
So we have an annual launch launch. Every September. It is quite exciting. We get all the financial advisors in, in a venue and we talk them through our product enhancements for the following. Yeah. So we we that is our like target date for our annual innovation cycle and at the just after. Each launch. So let's say between October to December, we we have a very big push to ideate. So you know and we also each person almost. As their each each person has their portfolio that they look after. So the the physical activity person will will look at the the active rules portfolio and and we also we work very closely with our product owners. So the product owner and the owner will work together to look after the the ideation phase and. And then we take it to our executive, our executive committee, take them through the ideas and and and then we we iterate through throughout the for the next 4 to 6 month. Until we come up with a project that is, that is launch worthy and and it it a lot goes into it and it's very it's quite cycle dependent.
So like when we when we made the change from the. Earn, you know, close your ring, get your coffee to the close your ring to play the game board. We supported that shift with a massive nationwide campaign where we actually opened up the game board and the the experience to all of South Africa, regardless of whether or not you had the. Fact. So I'm depending on on the features. Depending on enhancements, we'll usually have a really cool launch campaign to support it and make sure people know what's happening.
Ben
Amazing. So we've touched on there in terms of the high engagement rate you have of players over many years as well. So what are the impact and key stats? Do you have of active rewards? What changes is it having in people's behaviour?
Jacqui
So I think for me the biggest change. Would that impact that active rewards introduced for us has been the the wealth and I think it's probably my my quant background that makes me excited about this point, but it's the wealth of data points that we've been able to generate. So one of the other projects that that our teams are quite involved with and I think our UK team. Did above research on this is the the idea behind like a habit index? And then using those habits and the habit index to help people build good habits.
So with physical activity, because of the data that we've generated, we can look and say which behaviours are good, promote good habit formation, and that work would not have been possible without. The supporting data. And the supporting data wouldn't have been possible without the game. So in three 2015, the only thing encouraging people to exercise was getting to to gold or diamond status. So that's it's another thing with the the vitality programme is you have health statuses and that if you have the. If you have the life insurance product that that relates to to cash backs, so there's a lot of benefits to being on a higher status, but pre 2015. You had an annual goal of getting to to gold or diamond, and if you missed it, Oh well, try again next year. And if you made it, yeah. You got your your life payback, you know, good job. And what active rewards did and and physical activity doesn't work in such long cycles.
And it's another thing with with gamification. And behaviour change in general. The THE programme has to support the the natural cycle of the behaviour, so like screening and prevention, is not a frequent activity that happens annually, so it's OK to have an annual reward associated with it. But physical activity, nutrition, you, you have to exercise and eat well every day to see long term. Impacts and the the overall status structure didn't support that point of of you know, health and behaviour change, whereas active rewards shrunk down the goal cycle to a weekly cycle. And and then even if a person did reach their points cap, or if they did reach Diamond because the game was still there, there was still a very good reason for them to keep exercising. So we with the game, UM, we've given UM, I I can't remember off hand the stats but we are going, we are generating millions of data points in a year which is over 10 years. Is not insignificant over 700,000 lives. It's it's. It's quite a chunky data set, which is, which you can do a lot with.
Ben
And what's that mean in People's day-to-day lives? What are people changing in terms of their health? I think I'm from being incredibly inactive to active. And you've seen that shift in their outcomes, their well-being, their health metrics. What is it? Again.
Jacqui
We've definitely seen a beautiful shift in in behaviour and we and it's it's so interesting. I spoke about the the Apple Watch benefit earlier. So our our normal active rewards population is more engaged and they exercise I think it was like two or three physical activity days more per week than our non active Rd space. And then the the population with the watch is even higher than the the active rewards population without the watch.
So there's the difference step shift and one of the things that I saw which was quite interesting and we looked at this right and active rewards went. Live is when people start engaging with physical activity. They start engaging with other lifestyle behaviours as well. So people, one of our other benefits is the healthy food benefit where people can earn cash backs on healthy items purchased. And we saw when people started engaging in physical activity. They're purchasing behaviour and healthy foods start shifting and by those two combined you see a shift in other metrics. So peoples bmis reducing cholesterol, blood pressures, going in range. So we're definitely seeing those knock on effects. I had another idea but it went. Out of my mind.
Pete
Well, that that's really interesting and I love the impact on the 700,000 people in the rewards system. It does sound like there's quite a lot of cost involved to discovery subsidising all the rewards, the watches and so on. So what's the impact on the business? Is it just for customer loyalty or does it actually save money in insurance payouts? What can you tell us?
Jacqui
That is a very good question and unfortunately at the end of the day. These companies or businesses it does now make financial sense. So and this is a good opportunity to talk about the discovery model. So in how how it works is Vitality supports the health and life insurance. And the thinking is that if you get people to engage in physical activity, eat healthily, manage their risks, you'll reduce their claims. So you people who are chronic and you're helping them manage their their condition reduce the severity, people who are not chronic, you are helping prevent the the onset of chronic. So especially the the NTDS, so diabetes, cardiovascular disease, all those health those lifestyle. Related illnesses and so if if people manage their risk well, you see a reduction in the the health insurer and the life insurer. And that actual surplus is pushed into vitality, so it it really is we we've we've coined we we call we talk about the shared value model a lot where the the.
Vitality supports our clients reduce their risk, which helps alleviate pressures in the health and life insurance space, which opens up funding and we defunded we see. That but also that is also why there's such a very strong actuarial and quant components to product design. You have to see outcomes. You're not just giving away rewards for nothing. It it has to be balanced with. The outcomes, I think that's also why we started small with active rewards started with a very small reward and it is associated with if you don't exercise, you are not getting your discounts, you are not getting your Apple Watch funded, it's it's a lot of work on the actuaries, they have to. And the fun game design with the pragmatism. But I think there's also, you know, there's obviously the ROI component, but there's also from a loyalty perspective you, you you mentioned loyalty. We see that our people who engage are much stickier. They have lower lapses. So it is. It's a way of creating a good client and a way of attracting good clients.
Ben
I'd like to go back a bit to your PhD just before we got the tail off here. Jackie. So your PhD was in gamification? The role of goal setting. Can you tell us a little bit more about your research and why you chose goal setting and what you learned from that process?
Jacqui
Absolutely. So I I chose goal setting as a focus area largely because of my involvement with active roads. So I guess the two, it was a bit of a no brainer for me. UM, but when I was in the initial the initial stages of of thinking about topic and going through what would make it like a meaningful contribution to to the research. And I came across quite a few studies and quite a lot of literature that talks about. So when we when we think about goal setting. We typically think about smart goals and in from a business like in in business you lack. Goals are good, they must be specific.
There's a few other acronyms, but people it's it's such a like people focus so much on the goal side of things but not on the how to set a good goal. And as I read more and more about it and especially focused on on Locke and Latham's goal setting theory, so I I saw that it's not just about having a goal, it's about having a goal that is correctly set. So it has to be specific. It has to be challenging, but also has to be achievable. And I think that is sometimes something that people forget is, they said, a really, really hard goal. But they don't have the means to do it. They don't have the the skills, they don't have the know how, and then it's. Kind of just. A wish. Really. Really. It's it's a very big hope. Without that achievable component, so like and Nathan's work, really it was.
I found it quite interesting. That there's an art to setting good goals. And then drawing on that is, there's there's a way of setting a goal, depending on how difficult the task is, how comfortable you are with the task, what your skill and aptitude levels are, and that's where the whole performance versus learning framing comes in and and we see in physical activity. A lot of performance framed goals you don't often see. Learning framed goals outside of education, maybe outside of of human resources, but that that learning. Component and that's it's the learning the learning component is so much more valuable to an unhealthy population or to a population is new to physical activity. So I I found the type of research talking about like the value of a learning framing goal compared to performance, framing and then when I dug into it a bit deeper.
Also found quite a bit of research from a gamification perspective, where again, the narrative was that a lot of goals and gamification tend to be performance driven. And and I think it's because it's just easier to set up performance like it's really easier to tell someone to go around 5K's in half an hour and and if, if that's assuming that the person knows how to pace themselves, it assumes that they have run, you know, more than 500 metres, it's assuming. So it's kind of assumes a lot, but it's really easy. It's easy to set the goal. Whereas with learning, framing, you do have to go a little bit more personalised.
So my research in the active rewards context, so using active rewards as my case sites, I I looked at how what the impact is if you change the framing depending on a person's underlying motivation levels and based on their self efficacy. So how comfortable they were with their self-confidence in the game. In the game itself and I I tried a hybrid framing. Where depending on if a person had very high motivation but low self efficacy or vice versa where you combined the two framing conditions to help equalise the part that needs support and I was very pleased to get reasonable results. I think with a research study, unfortunately you work with with participants you working with people and people are not always as compliant with engaging in you. Of study. But I I got a very decent data set and I showed that the different framing conditions had an impact and people did increase their their goal achievements and under the correct framing conditions.
But I'd love to do a follow up study. With a larger, you know really honing in on the hypothesis larger sample size and you know, back when I did my research. We, we we didn't. It was very low tech sent people emails every week. I'd love to do a like little app and engage with people a little bit more.
Ben
Remarkable. I think we could have you on for another episode just to go deeper into the PhD and what you found on goals just to come more to an end now, Jackie, it'd be great to know. First of all, what issues have you seen and where do you foresee the role of gamification and health? And have you seen any great examples that you'd like to talk about too?
Jacqui
So under the issues side. I think with health behaviour change, one of the big issues that we see that we have is it's not once off. You don't get fit and then stay at that level of fitness. You have to work on it continuously. And I think that's also one of the big differences between industry and research is research your YOUR study is contained to a fixed period. You've got 12 weeks or 16 weeks or whatever of your intervention. And that's the time that you. Have with with. Your your population, but in industry, if you have a long term. The game, like active rewards, is there. It's it's there every day. We have to keep it, keep it sustainable, keep it going. And that's also why you, I think with, with good gamification and good product design, you can't just launch and then leave it.
There's always iterations. So it's definitely that sustainability, the sustainability angle of health behaviour change, then something that I feel quite strongly about is is the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic. So part of my thesis, I delved very deeply into motivation theory. Specifically self determination theory. So there I got a very good appreciation for the the the spectrum of motivation and I think it's very easy to rely on rewards and you know do this to get that mechanics, but those are not the things. That will that doesn't support sustainability and doesn't support people becoming intrinsically motivated. Get it? And if you can intrinsically motivate people, it helps just build that habit better.
So I I'm a firm believer that you balance the, I mean, in a game people do like earning rewards. They do like the shiny things. But you do need to support it with autonomy, that creative elements, allowing people to feel. Competent feel related so I think. It's it's always balancing the extrinsic and intrinsic rewards in a game that I think is is absolutely fundamental. And and in examples that I've seen recently. So I very recently decided to install Duolingo. I want to learn French because I'm going to a conference in July. And it is a very tricky little app. There are some nifty features there. I have enjoyed a lot of the features because I've seen a lot of case studies and a lot of people talk about it. People talk about the gold cheeks, the the, the streak freezes, things like that. So it was really great. Experiencing it.
This hand I I think the biggest unintended consequence for me is they made the widgets so engaging. When you don't have a streak that are actually gave myself a bit of a a challenge to see how far I can push this poor little owl on my anti streak streak. But once, once I got into it, it it it, it was very funny seeing the little ghost style waving at me come back. And then once I once I engage with it and engage with the streak, I think that. Is such a. Because they rely so heavily on streaks, think the ability to save your streak because life life does happen. Sometimes you don't have time to engage with the game. Having the ability to save your street really goes towards. Feeling a sense of empowerment when you when you save, save yourself so there's. And I think Joe Link is a great example of how if you have a a mechanic that you rely on heavily, you do need a way of of supporting it so that if people lose their streak, they don't just. Fall away and disengage completely.
Pete
That's great about the streaks. I literally was just chatting to a friend a couple of days ago who had over 1000 day streak on Duolingo and then stopped doing the street two weeks ago. And actually he says it feels like a real relief, a weight off him. So I think there might be an issue with pressure on a longer streak.
Jacqui
Man, it's it's one of the things I, I mean, we say with physical activity as well. If you have a really long streak and then you fall sick, fall ill you, you you that's physically you're physically not capable of of carrying on with the physical activity. So now streaks and I think that's the thing with. With most of the game mechanics is if you are not careful, there are some unintended consequences then. That's also why it's important to go back to first principles of like is it. You know, is it is it? Is it the dark arts or is it a? Is it promoting healthy, healthy habits sustainably?
Ben
Jackie, it's been fantastic having on the show today. It's been great to talk through the journey from academia and mathematics to behavioural science, health insurance and games. Location your role in Vitality helps active rewards programme and the development process, learnings and impact of the programme over the last 10 years to over 700,000 people. That variety is the spice of life and the spice of game mechanics. Using data science to create more options and tailoring of game mechanics. Rather than just adding more incentives and with such a range of player types, the importance of personalised gamification to engage both the ultra Active Rewards players to the players who are moving from inactive to active for the first time in possibly many. Years and the balance of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, setting good goals and some of the ethics and morals of gamification and the potential unintended consequences of gamification and behavioural science. Jackie, thank you so much for being on the show today.
Jacqui
Thank you so much for having me. This has been such a great chance.
Pete
It really has thanks so much for making time for us.
Jacqui
No, of course I it's one of the things I enjoy talking to people by gamification and. Spreading the word of of sustainable and habit supporting gamification. It's something I feel strongly about.