Are you passionate about harnessing gamification to improve health outcomes? Curious about how cutting-edge technology can make mental health support more engaging, accessible, and effective—especially for young people? Then you’ll want to tune in to this Series 3 Episode 6 of Health Points, featuring Lisa Franke, CEO and founder of Maxim VR.
Meet Lisa Franke: Innovator at the Intersection of Health, Gaming, and AI
Lisa’s journey is as inspiring as it is relevant. With a background in design, marketing, and social impact, she’s spent the last decade exploring how technology can support a healthier future for young people. Her motivation? A deep personal understanding of how digital environments shape mental health, especially after becoming a parent herself.
Lisa founded Maxim VR on a simple but powerful belief: young people deserve mental health support that speaks their language—interactive, engaging, stigma-free, and delivered where they feel most comfortable.
Why Gamification? Why VR?
Lisa shares how her creative background led her to see gamification as the ideal “language” for connecting with young people. Teenagers crave autonomy, agency, and emotional engagement—not lectures or top-down interventions. Gamification, she argues, empowers users to take charge of their own journeys, making mental health support feel less like a chore and more like an adventure.
But Maxim VR goes a step further, leveraging both augmented reality (AR) and virtual reality (VR) to create a truly immersive, personalized experience. At the heart of the platform is a nonverbal, AI-powered companion—think Tamagotchi meets Pokémon meets coach—that guides users through emotional challenges, helps them build resilience, and adapts to their unique needs.
What Makes Maxim VR Different?
- Nonverbal, Inclusive Design: The companion communicates through gestures and behaviors, making the experience accessible across languages, cultures, and even for users who are nonverbal or neurodiverse.
- Personalization Through AI: The system collects emotional and behavioural data (like breathing and eye movement) to tailor each adventure, ensuring every user’s journey is unique and relevant.
- Real-World Impact: The skills learned in VR are designed to transfer to real life, with the companion “living” in your pocket via AR, ready to support users whenever they need it.
- Focus on Prevention: By targeting emotion regulation, self-awareness, and identity formation, Maxim VR aims to provide preventative support—helping young people before mental health issues become crises.
Lessons for Health & Gamification Professionals
Lisa’s candid discussion offers a wealth of insights for anyone designing or implementing health gamification projects:
- Meet Users Where They Are: Design interventions that fit seamlessly into users’ lives and speak their language.
- Prioritize Agency and Autonomy: Let users lead their own journeys—gamification is most powerful when it empowers, not prescribes.
- Embrace Inclusivity: Nonverbal and culturally neutral design can dramatically expand accessibility and impact.
- Iterate with Real Feedback: Maxim VR’s focus on young athletes and collaboration with psychologists shows the value of co-design and pilot testing.
- Balance Innovation with Safeguards: AI and adaptive experiences offer huge potential, but require careful attention to ethics, privacy, and user safety.
The Big Picture: Where Is Health Gamification Headed?
Lisa predicts that the lines between games, tools, and therapies will continue to blur. The future belongs to experiences that are evidence-based, empathetic, and user-driven—where digital companions and adaptive environments become the norm in mental health support.
But she also highlights the challenges: breaking into conservative health systems, navigating regulatory hurdles, and ensuring that technology is built with the right intentions and safeguards.
Why Listen?
If you’re looking to learn best practices, avoid common pitfalls, and get inspired by real-world innovation at the intersection of health, gamification, and AI, this episode is a must-listen. Lisa’s journey is a testament to the power of creativity, empathy, and perseverance in tackling some of the most pressing challenges in adolescent mental health.
Tune in to discover:
- How to design gamified health interventions that truly engage and empower users
- The importance of personalization and inclusivity in digital health
- Practical lessons from the frontlines of health tech innovation
Don’t miss this fascinating conversation—your next breakthrough idea might just be waiting in Lisa’s story.
You can listen to this episode below:
Episode Transcript:
Ben
Hey. Everyone and welcome to another episode of Health Points where we talk about anything and everything. Gamification. Health. I'm Ben and here with me. As my co-host is Pete.
Pete
Looking forward to another fascinating chat today.
Ben
And joining us today, we have Lisa Frank, who is CEO and founder of Maxim VR. Lisa has a background in design, marketing, entrepreneurship and social impact. She studied design in San Francisco about a decade ago and has focused on creating technology that supports A healthier future for young people. Maxim VR was created around a powerful belief that young people deserve mental health support. That actually speaks their language. Interactive, engaging, stigma free and delivered in the environments where they feel comfortable. Lisa, it's great to have you. On the show today.
Lisa
Hello everybody. Thanks for having me.
Ben
Right. That was a bit of a background on your intro, but it'd be brilliant to get a better understanding of your journey to Maxim VR and kind of everything you do at Maxim VR. But let's start on the journey to get there.
Lisa
Lovely. Thank you. Yeah. So as you mentioned already, so I studied the Francisco design around a decade ago, which feels very long time. And this was basically a very exciting time and right at the rise of the big tech team, lots of like user generated content, mobile first platform, lots of social connection. Day, but I think back then, very few people actually thought about how all this new emerging technology back then you know, is impacting the mental health of especially young people and how those digital worlds are going to impact, you know, our kids or the world, even us, I. Guess. And then I moved to London and I become a parent. I'm sure if you have kids, but life changes and priority. Planes and I started thinking much more deeply. Basically, you know what? How these technologies are actually impacting my child, you know? And I started researching this more and more and realising that 75% of all mental health illness actually starts at the age of 18. So which means I. Mean we all. Have our problems right and we've been triggered and you know we I don't know. Something comes to the surface. So the chance is very much high somehow related to our childhood and. So that was the starting point of me thinking. How can we build technology that is supporting the well-being and the connection, but also the emotional growth and how can we meet young people where they are and yeah, so that was the starting point of magazine we are to create a platform where we can. Gamify but personalised offer support, but it's also stigma free.
Ben
So clearly the experience of being a mum and kind of the understanding, the challenges your children go through was the motivation behind it. What was the point where you went? Gamification is the way to take this forward as a as. An intervention or as a service?
Lisa
Yeah. So for. Me, I'm a creative thinker and I think Dan Lee would design doesn't matter what you design. If it's like a product or a brand or a digital experience, and it always comes down to storytelling and emotional engagement. And now when we now think about young people, I mean I think I was a horrible teenager when when you were 16 year old teenager, you do not want to be told what to do, but you want to be, want to feel seen and heard. And also you want to be in control. And I guess the gamification gives us. This powerful language to communicate with young people on their terms. So we can make them the power to be in charge and the power to make a decision and to power to lead the game. And and I think here the interesting thing is how do we combine the supportive and the therapeutic in an engaging and interactive. Even fun way and UM yes. So basically that was the question. So how do we take the core of what works in game, like autonomy or progression and identity and we can apply it to emotional well-being.
Ben
So let's take it back to early days of Maxim VR kind of concept. Where did the concept to go to VR? What was their first ideas for the gameplay and I guess take us through that journey from first light bulb moment idea and where Maxim VR is now as the gameplay, the game mechanics and experience for users.
Lisa
Absolutely. I mean it's it's been a very long journey and obviously it comes with lots of ups and downs, especially because we're sitting at this intersection of AI, which just plays a really crucial part of what we do. And then we have the game and the health and it's basically changing and emerging. Daily, right and it's impacting in real life what we do we. Always from the beginning, we. Thought about and how to make it the worse as possible so our focus was always on a very like a non verbal communication. So we can keep us as inclusive as possible. So our whole design from the beginning was always circling around this companion. That is supporting our use. And but obviously it needs lots of research because how can you have a companion that is alive and that's responsive to a young person, emotional needs, you know, it needs lots of research, lots of. You know, we need to we had to speak to lots of young people at the moment we're focusing on the mental health of young athletes. Spoke to lots of young athletes, parents as well, psychologists, you know, to get all this feedback in. So we are actually able to. Come up with this concept of this companion that is mentoring, but also mirroring. So where is basically the balance of how much do we guide this young person and how much do can they guide themselves. Basically through this journey?
Ben
The nonverbal communication. I mean, my mind, actually went to Pingu the. Penguin and Penguin never said a word, but I always knew what he was trying to say, so I can. The idea of making it accessible and being non verbal. I guess it it it goes across language, culture and boundaries and makes it more available. Also I guess to people who are nonverbal, maybe people who are on the spectrum or people who are non them, but because another condition it means that they could engage with it as well.
Lisa
Absolutely.
Ben
So.
Lisa
Just to say, just to add something on that, I always take my cat as an example. So my daughter she's 7 now and you know she has lots of high energy and then but when the cat is in the room and obviously the cat doesn't speak, but she knows exactly when to leave the cat alone, when to sit, how to stroke, you can see how the ears move. The tail goes, you know. It tells her. Her she understands without the words, and that's basically how we are going to mirror the companion that is supporting you, like your little pet. You know, you don't have to speak, but you know exactly what your. Pet wants and needs.
Ben
So you've talked about the idea the gameplay involves this companion as around mirroring, supporting understanding and emotional situations, and kind of being there for that kind of guidance. What got you to that point of deciding it was a companion that was important and more importantly, can it, how do you create a companion which can be responsive to to a teenager? Breadth of emotions.
Lisa
Yeah. So I don't know exactly when. And. When we decided that that's the companion, but I think we started designing and one important point for us was like how do we connect the AR, the real world with the VR, so and how do we engage someone but also letting this young person go again. So and that's where we decided. That the companion is the right thing. And where we are now is basically so the the personal companion, it's like your emotional part. That's something between a Tamagotchi apart, Pokémon and. But also part coat. And it lives in your pocket, on your phone, on AR. So it's all about building this relationship. It's all about trust. It's your friends. You can always you take care of them. So it's like all about relationship building, but then you take this companion into the VR world where or the. The other way around, actually the common companion invites you into the VR world, where it takes you on adventures. And obviously through the VR headset, there are ways of track certain data. We're focusing on breadth eye movement, but also the engagement on the game environment itself gives us indication, you know how how the user feels. So we're getting all these. Emotional inputs and the goal is basically the uh companion takes you on adventures. So. Because it's adaptive, so the our goal is that every experience is unique. Every mental health journey is unique, and so is the game. It's gonna be different for for, for everybody who's engaging with it and our focus is on emotion regulation, resilience and self-awareness and. It's an island and the companion takes you on these different areas where it can be. You climb a mountain because you're struggling or there's like an area of boredom. We are focusing on. We have like a visualisation beach, so it's basically the user trying to figure out how they feel. It's also OK to not feel good and then basically they all this emotional data feeds back into the companion. With the goal basically to find the right balance, what kind of information do we feed the companion? How does the companion analyses it and then feeds back? To the young person to support them on their journey. And as I said before, then it's important to let them go again. You know, how can they? Use or take the skills they've learned in the VR environment. And apply them in the real world. And then if they need help, the companion sits in their pocket, if that makes sense. So getting this full circle.
Ben
So you've taken us through this gameplay that you begin on augmented reality with your phone. I understand the concept that Tamagotchi Pokémon Go style, it then invites you into this virtual reality world so that you can go on these adventures. Talk us through. You and kind of as a team, how you decided what these adventures look like and. And I guess I I completely agree with the point being that everyone's unique, everyone's health, mental health journey is unique. Every adventure will need to be unique. How do you make a service that can cater to that breadth? Because that is no small task at all.
Lisa
Yeah, that's true. So I think also I think that it's not an easy landscape to be in and you know to be honest, we have been struggling a lot to where do do we position ourselves because we sit on this intersection of gaming, which is very. In the health tech area? Not. Yeah, maybe it's a growing, growing area, but it's nothing people know much about it yet. And then there's the we are as well people who have used we are, they know people who have not. They're like, oh, it's we are. So we have been struggling a lot to be honest on the healthcare market in the last year. And what we really but the problem is clear and it's clear there's a solution needed, but I think people, they're not always very open minded to new innovative ideas. Which involves the technology and what we're trying to do and also mental health is so broad and there are so many different areas to focus on. So what we decided to do is to focus on emotion regulation and interpersonal skills and finding identity. And why we're doing is is we can basically offer like a transatlantic approach because many times behaviour and habits are the foundation of many mental health illnesses. But when we focus on these on these pillars means we can actually give and support everybody in a very early stage in a preventative approach, ideally making it a tool that you can engage with even if you. Feel fine. You know, you think you feel you're OK or there's no diagnosis or whatsoever yet, but we can give you, teach you the skills before it actually gets to a point where you know you might have a diagnosed mental health. Problem and because, yeah. And then obviously we had to narrow down, OK, where do we start and then which how do we enter the market and So what we decided to do is now focus on young athletes or elite athletes here actually 25% of all athletes develop a lifelong mental health disorder. So in their case, they struggle like everybody else, but on top of that, they have very high pressure and. They are actually very motivated. They are used to roles. They're they're, they're they're they're showing up every day. They're used to routine. But they. Even more stigma and taboos around it. And then there's an even higher problem of who I do I talk to because if I talk to my coach about it, how I feel I might not play this weekend and then it's it's it's directly affecting if I play or not playing then it's affecting my career and everything that's related to it. So this pivot to start there in terms of focusing on how to collect data and doing our research and also making sure how do we design the gameplay was really, really helpful because whatever they're going through can be applied to any other young person as well. Everybody struggles with finding identity and. Regulating regulating their emotions. But this is like a very controlled environment where we can direct access and first of all, the psychologist on these teams but and also working with young athletes and getting their feedback. And yeah, using yeah their input basically to to design the 1st or the 1st version of the game before we can then apply it to other areas of mental health as well.
Ben
So you're in this pilot phase at the moment. You've kind of focused now more on young athletes. How are those initial pilots? How is the early feedback going and are you starting to see any, any change in any impact in terms of mental health or physiological changes as well like breathing?
Lisa
Yeah. So we have now our big a few big clubs lined up for the pilot and we just actually. Closer. Really big partnership in one of Europe's biggest AI developer for the behavioural AI model, because. While behaviour AI is already there in terms of like it can predict certain things or it can track certain behaviour and data, putting that, as I said before, the data goes in the system you analyse that, but then the AI has to make a decision how to respond to it. So this is the like. Have. An area that needs to be researched and explored. So while let's say the general we are environments and there is enough research out there, for example how which environment can support or help with feelings of anxiety or how having a pact you know is is is helping. So this is definitely a lot more like a long term. Research project until we get this right. So also at the moment we're focusing on athletes 16 plus because it's easier for us to collect this data and collect feedback before we can then also focus on younger on younger. People. But what we see and also engage or when we engaged with them or when we had half the calls or when I spoke to lots of clubs, lots of athletes even like ex professional footballer just to get their thoughts on it, you know and I think it always comes back to how do we make them. Feel safe and seen and in control. And yeah. So and then from there on in terms of impact in the long term, I think generally in the healthcare system, the waiting time is. Is a huge problem with up to 18 months before your child can be seen by healthcare professional. I think it's even 2 1/2 years for children with ADHD, autism and. So that and that is why, following this trans agnostic and preventative approach, you know our goal is definitely to. Rich, that waiting time, right, because there's so much data we can collect along the way that our goal is basically through the data and that we can analyse through the game play and through the engagement on the platform and the biometric data we're collecting that we can support these healthcare professionals and in the diagnosis as well. So no data gets lost basically.
Pete
So are you really hoping to gather more data through this audience through the AI and then use that to feedback and have a bigger impact than? Even just the players.
Lisa
Yeah. So what's interesting is with the for the, for the sports people, they actually do not want this data to be shared because you know for example athlete they're like. 24748 obviously what they did, you know, so I think the one thing they want to have not being said, Sally, is what is in their mind exactly what they are thinking, how they are feeling. Because they're worried how you know, this might be impact, how they're being seen by the club or by their fans or whatever. But in our case, because the data feeds back into the game, into the game and it adjusts the game, we do not need the data to be shared because we actually just need the data to personalise. The environment or the experience in real time? But in a later version, obviously this data is there and you're analysing it anyways. So for example, if you were not take your child to a GP. And I've spoken with LGP's who. Him actually exactly mentioned that as a huge problem, so they see a 14 year old. He the doctor was the GP was talking about a 14 year old boy. He comes and then the assessment talks about what's your favourite stuffed animal you know? So whatever questions related to this, what your boys now he comes back in two years because that's what the waiting time is he had no. No support was ever in the mean time. Now he comes back and then they questions been asked, you know, finally he's a psychologist. The wait is finally over. But then the question has been asked, like, well, he's 16 now. Is not, I don't know the last thing he want to talk about is about his stuffed animal. Right. So in the meantime, he probably went to puberty and heartbreak and anything life throws at the six Mil kit. But the questions are not related to anymore. So you've been waiting for two years to then actually been asked, what's your favourite stuff, animal? So and we see in a huge possibility and opportunity to here as well to the data. Let's say you go to the GP, you go home, you use our products, it's basically can be applied to to any young person because we are not diagnostic and. We you engage with it. So we couldn't collect data through this gaming experience and then the data could make accessible to the healthcare professional. So after this 18 months waiting time for psychologists can actually access these data points that can help them to do a diagnosis or just get a better insight of who's that kid.
Pete
Yeah, that's very nice because you get that level of detail now with all the different. Physical data points from like blood glucose to heart rate and stuff, and it really helps the doctor understand what they're working with, doesn't it? And the issues you're facing.
Ben
So it's it's one if we got this partnership with this huge AOE a partnership, I guess the challenge is also working with adolescents and children. Teenagers is what level this will be automated and generative in terms of how companions act and respond. You can't have rules in the script that covers everyone. So how do you make sure you have something that can be responsive? The needs of your players. But also has safeguards in place to ensure that nothing is inappropriate or unsupportive to them.
Lisa
Absolutely. So obviously because the focus is on non verbal communication and it's a single user experience. So with the risk it we derisk the project from the beginning. Which makes it more challenging because how do you communicate if you're a non verbal animal that is guiding you? So it's a lot about finding emotion sitting with them. So we actually had, you know, like I'm sure you know the movie inside out. Or inside out too and you have all this emotion. So we actually designed our own emotions, you know, with the idea to find them and they educating you about certain emotions. So. But it's a long way. You have to start with the basic emotions and you go from there. You expand because also let's say if you, you know anxiety, it can be. It's not just negative, it cannot be positive and you know there's emotions that are emerging. And so it's very difficult to find the right nuance of and to get this right. So that's why we decided to start with finding identity and emotion regulations. So we can learn more the more we engage and obviously the interaction with the pets like a Tamagotchi, you take care of it, you feed it, you play with it, you know, it will tell us a lot about the young person. Ready while it's in the 1st place, a fun game to do right because you have it in AR. It's it's there, it's it's you can play with it, you can feed it when you get tired, it's going to sleep. So it's finding this right balance how to keep the engaged right? So we learn about it, about the young person. And and basically offer them help. Without them knowing if that makes sense right? Because if you're teenager and like you like, yeah, do this, you're not going to do. It, but if. They know they're in charge and to be making them let them give them the chance to become the hero of their own mental health journey, like or go on their own hero's journey. While they're actually receiving support, I think that's the that's the challenge to to to get this balance right.
Pete
That's a great point. So is there much narrative? Within the game to take them on the journey because you were saying like trying to make it. Cross culture I guess. How are you? How are you working their narrative element into the game?
Lisa
Yeah. So we have an amazing game designer and narrative designer on the team. Her name is Rudy. She's amazing. So at the moment we are exploring the connectivity between AR and VR and to to fully get this right because. That's the most important thing. How do you have this animal that tips in your pocket and that is your friend that supports you, let you or invites you into this VR world and how to get this right? So we are currently working on that to get this right. Generally speaking, obviously there's lots about. Involving in our case now athletes into the design process. Getting their feedback, their psychologists the biggest struggle. I'm also because we are now focusing on the sports at this point. It makes it also easier to design the right solution or for the biggest pain point. For what that club needs at that moment of time and then we can. Expand. It from there. So, because I mean, mental health is endless, right? Where do you start? So but this is basically narrowing it down, getting the connection right between AI and VR and and obviously I think with the VR, the whole quality of the experience is so important. As well.
Ben
You've taken on a a gigantic challenge. Lisa. Like you're right. It's so broad. Where do you even begin to start? What have for your journey of this? What have been your real pain points or what have been your real kind of learnings or Nuggets that you've kind of gathered over this time that you want to share?
Lisa
I know. Yes, I think my biggest pain point is that. Everyone understands the problem because everyone is struggling or has children who struggle. But what we have trying the last year is like positioning ourselves directly as a digital therapeutic tool. I've been running no raising investment. I've been running against so many walls because as I said before, not everyone understands it. It's very in in the there's lot of innovation from the gaming side, from the AI side, from the behaviour, but also from the real time feedback. You know, just putting that into words that people understand and also I'm I said I'm a creative, I'm a I I love finding solutions putting the passive pieces together. I love connecting people and you know I'm I'm a very casual person. And and I think when I was, you know and I have an amazing team of health professionals, we have, you know, the the people from really well known universities and hospitals. So you know the team, my, my co-founder, he's an AI engineer himself. So I have a very strong team. But still when I've been like connecting with the people in the health tech. Days I feel like I've kept running into walls. Maybe they did not understand me, or maybe I was not. I don't know. Can I say this conservative enough in a certain way? I think that was my. Yeah. It was a it was very challenging. So now pivoting towards the sport, it's exactly the same thing, but I feel like building these connections and having people feel the passion and are passionate about it because they have experienced it or they. I feel like this. Yeah. Give so much more back. And in the end of the day, I understand you need to get the validation and you have to be risk the product. I you know, I absolutely understand that. And obviously as I said, the long term goal is to position our staff as a teacher therapeutic too. But I have the feeling the landscape we are in, at least here in the UK, it's like you have to go around it to actually come back to what you wanted to do in the 1st place. So you have to find a way around because no one wants to. Invest, I guess in an early stage product that has, let's say the N. As as a as a customer that's I think that was my biggest learning paid for learning curve so far.
Ben
Yeah, I've had a a similar painful learning curve, Lisa, and it's no wonder there isn't a kind of a saying within health tech in the UK that so many companies will, will will start here, but they'll go abroad because there are it's so much easier to get into large hospitals, health systems, there are many barriers, there are many challenges. Yeah, I completely sympathise and also understand the challenges you've had from a personal. It would be great to understand what you see happening within this sector, whether it's around adolescent mental health and technology gamification, or if you've seen other examples of health gamification which you've really liked through personal experience, or ones that you've seen from afar.
Lisa
Yeah. So I. Think I think there are two things I think generally in the gaming space. Obviously you know AI is everywhere and it's, you know it's it's and it's not going anywhere. But I think also I saw a great example. Where AI was unlocking creativity for users with no technical skills. So I see tools coming where players can generate their own characters or environments or stories without writing a single code. I think that's changing a little bit the narrative from being just a passive. Consumer to a more active creator and also comes back to having this ownership between gaming and mental health, you know, become being charged of that. So I think I I have seen this coming up a a lot. What, and I think generally with youth mental health. I there's one interesting company they I think they laying. Putting mental health support over existing games, like for example Super Mario and then you put like breathing exercise on top. So I've seen it, but I. Think that's? I don't want to say anything wrong now, but that's a huge example from the US and probably one of the big and best ones where I think they even managed to go into insurance reimbursement pathways. So that's quite interesting. So but they don't building their own experience, but they're putting a layer basically on top of existing. Games, yeah.
Ben
Yeah, I think it's a really good example of that. I know exactly the one you're referring to in that case, where do you see the next 5 or 10 years going? What do you think the future of gamification looks like either broadly within healthcare or if you wanna go more specifically in your area around adolescent mental health, what does what does the future look like?
Lisa
I think that's really interesting, interesting question, because I think the lines I think on a blurb between games and tools and therapies. So I think you know at the moment when you get support by reading a leaflet or you know, I don't know, having a chat with someone, I think. Most likely this is more or less to disappear because I think with the digital trends and avatars and so you know, coming up, I'm sure that lots of of these interfaces or these are going to run the interfaces, right? So I'm not sure when you interact with an avatar with a digital, your digital trenders or whatever, you know that's just count as a game. I don't know because it's not a real person interaction. But and the thing it has obviously great potential. You know, me being in that space, but also it's comes with obviously lots of risk, right, because who's building these technologies and are we getting the ethics right and. So I don't know. I think the future probably of gaming flying health depends a lot of like who is, what's the intent behind it or who's building it? What are the regulations. So I think if we get it right and we build with like empathy and agency and and based on evidence, then probably games will not just only support mental health, but they have the chance to basically transform it. But I guess it really. Depends on us, I guess. Who? Who building the technology? Yeah.
Ben
I think that was a pretty punchy and powerful place to finish on Lisa. It's been fantastic having on the show today to highlight the three courses of people who develop mental health conditions to develop it before the age of 18. The waiting time to access adolescent mental health services can be months to years, and why there's a huge importance. To provide engaging, fun, preventative therapeutics for young people to reduce the rate of poor mental health in adolescent, but also in later life. Considering that. Elements of nonverbal communication within the game to make games accessible while overcoming those challenges of how to make a virtual companion that's alive and responsive to adolescent players. Changing emotional needs to providing that safe space for players to explore better understand their personal identity and their full spectrum of emotions. And important that every mental health journey is unique, so every virtual adventure and experience needs to be unique and how critical it is to personalise these virtual companions and virtual experiences in gameplay. To cater for every individual's need. Lisa, it's been fantastic. Have you on the show today?
Lisa
Thank you so much. It was a lovely summer as well. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.
Pete
It's been brilliant, Lisa. Thank you. Fascinating. As I hoped for.
Lisa
Oh, lovely. Thank you. Thanks for being so patient with me. Honestly, it's been like we've spoken about this like 3 months ago or something. Thanks. Ben's lovely to meet you, Pete.