If you’re a health or gamification professional passionate about harnessing the power of games to transform health outcomes? Then in Series 3 Episode 9 of the Health Points podcast learn from the very best in the field of therapeutic game design. This episode features Dr Cosima Prahm, Director of the Centre for Clinical Research at Unfallkrankenhaus Trauma Hospital Berlin, and founder of the Play Bionic Working Group. With a background spanning clinical neuroscience, reconstructive surgery, and human-machine interfaces, Cosima is at the cutting edge of integrating gamification into rehabilitation and therapy.
What Makes This Episode Essential Listening?
1. Real-World Innovation in Health Gamification
Cosima shares her journey from medical student to award-winning innovator, revealing how a simple Reddit post about gaming with amputees sparked a movement. You’ll hear how her team developed custom games that use myoelectric signals (turning muscle movements into game controls) to help amputees and trauma patients regain function and confidence.
2. Designing for Impact, Not Just Engagement
Discover the design thinking behind games like Phantom AR and Stable Hand VR. Cosima explains why off-the-shelf games weren’t enough, and how her team co-created new experiences tailored to the unique needs of patients. You’ll learn how mixed reality and VR can provide not just distraction, but real therapeutic benefit: reducing pain, improving range of motion, and motivating patients to push their limits.
3. Co-Creation and Rapid Iteration
One of the most powerful takeaways is Cosima’s approach to co-design. Working closely with patients, clinicians, and a lean development team, she demonstrates how rapid prototyping and direct feedback can lead to truly meaningful interventions. You’ll hear stories of patients who wanted tentacle arms or screwdriver prosthetics, and how listening to these requests led to more engaging, personalized therapy.
4. Overcoming Implementation Barriers
Cosima doesn’t shy away from the challenges: from securing funding and navigating medical device regulations to integrating new sensors and technologies. Her candid insights will help you anticipate and address the hurdles in bringing your own health gamification projects to life.
5. The Power of Making Things Weird (and Wonderful)
A recurring theme is the importance of making therapeutic games not just functional, but fun and even outrageous. Whether it’s a VR farm where patients can have frog concerts or a depressed scarecrow to chat with, Cosima’s philosophy is clear: if you want patients to engage, you need to surprise and delight them. Even the control group wanted to play the “real” games!
What Will You Learn?
- How to design games that are both clinically effective and genuinely enjoyable
- The value of co-creation with patients and clinicians
- Practical tips for integrating biofeedback and custom hardware into your projects
- Strategies for navigating the regulatory landscape in digital health
- Why making your interventions unique and conversation-worthy is key to sustained engagement
Who Should Listen?
If you’re a health professional, game designer, researcher, or anyone interested in the intersection of play and health, this episode is packed with actionable insights and inspiration. Cosima’s work is a testament to what’s possible when creativity, empathy, and science come together.
Tune in to this episode and get ready to rethink what’s possible in health gamification. Your next breakthrough idea might just be a tentacle away!
You can listen to this episode below:
Episode Transcript:
Ben
Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of Health Points where we talk about anything and everything, gamification and health. And I have with me my co-host Pete.
Pete
Hi everyone don't forget to share this episode with anyone else you think might be interested in hearing it.
Ben
And today we have with us we. Have Cosima Prahm. Who is director of the Centre for Clinical Research at the Unfelt Kraken House, the trauma hospital in Berlin and as a postdoc at charity the Medical University of Berlin. She is a clinical neuroscientist with a background of research in plastic and reconstructive surgery. Related to extremity reconstruction, prosthetic training and peripheral nerves, phantom limb pain, and human machine interfaces. She founded the Play Bionic Working Group in 2017, which has led to applications for myoelectric signal training, immersive environments for Phantom Pain relief, and more, and the winner of multiple awards, including from Games for Change. Because you know that is a hell of a bio entry to come in with, it's great to. Have you on health points?
Cosima
Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really happy to. Be here today.
Ben
So let's start with your background. You do a lot. So where did that inspiration come from? What's your journey been to get here?
Cosima
Sure. Yes. So you already mentioned a lot in the introduction, that's true. So now I am a clinical neuroscientist. So I studied at the Medical University of Vienna. I did my PhD there with the laboratory for Bionic extremity Reconstruction. Actually I started. Out with studying psychology and I transitioned to medicine and I always thought. The way we're taught could really be improved. So I wanted something more more hands on, more engaging. So I wasn't really satisfied with all the clinical. Stuff. And fun facts are next to the hospital and also the Medical University. So there is a campus which is the old hospital and in the old one they offered East Asian studies. And I thought, Oh yeah, that might be cool. So one day I just decided to enrol also in Japanese studies. And I'd figured I had finally escaped having to memorise every book and everything by heart.
Cosima
Boy, was I wrong. Because all the kanji, all the pictographs, have that. Really, that took a few years. But yeah, I went on to do more stuff and created my own curriculum, so to say and. Here we are now.
Ben
Incredible. Well, in that case, what led you to look at using games in research or games within kind of clinical interventions?
Cosima
So that really started like a lot. Of things. From a post on the Internet. Someone wanted to play video games with an amputee. There were friends, and I saw this on Reddit, actually, and they had built a different hardware controller to use with only one hand, and I thought I work with amputees. So we should do something about that. I thought about using muscle signals from the residual limbs or from the stump and substitute the game inputs from the controller with these muscle signals. So at first we used PC games that were already available and we just substituted like the mouse input like right, left, top down click. And used electrodes on the. Skin. And as time progressed, we also thought, yeah, why not just create our own game from scratch, with the already dedicated input from the muscle sickness and the corresponding effects on the screen? And then sometime during this time, I found it. Also the working group play Bionic.
Pete
That's really interesting. Why did you decide to create your own games when there were games out there? What what was the thinking?
Cosima
The games out there were great. But they had so many. Things that you could do, so many variables and that was just too much for the still limited input that we could get from the muscle signals. So right left up, down click. That was kinda the limit. What we could do back then. So keep in mind that was like 15 years ago or maybe 20, I don't know. So we thought we would directly. Develop a game that corresponds to the input signals that we could deliver, but now with machine learning and everything going on. Of course there are now many more possibilities.
Ben
So what were those? What were the early games or what are they involved into over the time?
Cosima
So the the first game that I played on the PC with a patient, it was like a. Car racing game like. I forgot the name. Maybe dust or like. A crash game. And I was really. Concerned because it's a game where you have to purposely crash into other cars that this could elicit some kind of trauma response. But never they were really into this crashing game. And then it was like VR games, when the Oculus 2 came out, we transitioned 2 VR games. By the way, the last VR game that I played was Half-life, Alex, and to this day I could not finish it because it's just too immersive and the head crabs are just too real.
Ben
In that case, what are the games that you've been working on and creating that are more tailored to the therapeutic purposes of of games and rehabilitation?
Cosima
Yes. So do you want me to tell you about the games that we have developed specifically? So for example, Phantom AR is something that we have been working on the last four to five years and that is a mixed reality.
Ben
Would be great, yeah.
Cosima
Motion. That we developed for the HoloLens 2 for patients with phantom limb pain after amputation, so they still have a sensation of the limb even though it is gone. And that one allows the users to see an augmented version of their missing one, which they can move and also manipulate virtually. And this visual feedback can help them retrain the brain's representation of the limb. So we have sensors again on the arm, and we have the residual limb system. And when the patient. Looks at this residual limb. They can see a virtual arm. And then interact with virtual objects. By the way, not only a virtual arm, we have also tried out a virtual tentacle.
Ben
So question there is what were the steps involved in designing this in the 1st place? Also, what led you to a tentacle as well but as a team as a group? What made you hypothesise? This was the most appropriate way to use? VR for this, for this particular group of individuals who are dealing with phantom limb pain.
Speaker
So why?
Cosima
Did we use a tentacle? Good question. There are two reasons. So the first, it's not because I was in Japan, but because actually a patient stated that on a BBC interview that what if she wanted to have anything else than an arm? What if she wanted the tentacle and we were like, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's build this and we are using. For phantom pain, we're using mixed reality so that they can still see their actual surroundings, like their desk or the hospital room so that they can actually also see their residual limb. And on this residual limb we augment. Or project a virtual hand and there is something called mirror therapy. It's therapy where patients can look into a mirror that is like transversely in the middle of their body. And if they look at it from the healthy side, then they automatically see another healthy limb. In the mirror and this can elicit the illusion. That they have two healthy. Hands. Even though they just have one and we thought, OK, we can bring this into your mixed reality. So the patient can actually see both hands and move both hands individually and this will alleviate phantom pain.
Ben
And what have been anecdotally or any trials, what was the impact been and what has the feedback been in the change in phantom limb pain?
Cosima
So the feedback. Has been amazing. Patients could control the arm that they did not actually see, and we did see a reduction in phantom pain. Actually, there was a learning curve, so at first neither the virtual arm nor the control methods did work really well because the HoloLens too. That is really the end boss to programme for. But overtime the technical limitations were vanishing and the patients could really feel that their hand had grown into the virtual hand.
Ben
You talked there about getting feedback from a patient around the tentacle and kind of why couldn't it be something else as a limb, do you generally have a design approach for when you're creating any form of game? Do you have a step by step process with your, with your team, or is it looking at other published research and other non digital?
Speaker
Good.
Ben
Interventions and how they can be adapted using digital technology to create a game out of it.
Cosima
So maybe I should mention what my team is, because there is not a lot of team, so it's mostly me and I have a really great. Software developer. His name is Michael and he is doing most of the software development and sometimes we have very motivated students that come in and do some thesis work. But other than that we are usually like a very, very small team and not like a 15 person developer team. So we of course we. Do have research and we read what other groups have done and we get inspired, but mainly we see something cool and then we incorporate that into our games and actually for example we have another game that is called Mayo OSU. It's our latest project that builds on the Japanese game, OSU. It's a music game, a rhythm game, and the goal of my also is also to prepare a patient and how to use their prosthesis. So it's again, it's for amputees and prosthetic control.
Speaker
And.
Cosima
That one I saw in an arcade in Japan. And it is just. Giant washing machine like game it's incredibly fun and loud and addictive. And I remember thinking, oh, we need something this engaging for our patients. So we adapted it for a tablet and prosthetic control training.
Pete
So how how exactly does it work? What's the gameplay?
Cosima
So Mayo also is the successor of Myo Beats, which was based on. Guitar Hero basically. And so my also is based on this Japanese rhythm game also. And you have to. Use precise muscle activations to hit certain like musical circles. So it's a game that elicits flow during music. And. The goal is to help patients practise their precise muscle activation for prosthetic control in a way that feels more like playing a game than doing therapy, for example. So in a way, it's still like Guitar Hero, but just please check out my or also because I'm really bad at explaining this right now.
Pete
Yeah, we will do that because this is the sequel to Mayo Beats and that's how I found you from the games for Change awards. So I've got high hopes for my OSI.
Cosima
Ohh yes, us too actually, because the cool thing is it incorporates movement, overhead, movements and movements to the side with the patient's arm. And Mayo beats the user could just sit there and use the muscle signals, but then Mayo, OSU, the user needs to use the muscle signals while following a curve on the screen or while holding up the hand, so it's even harder to use the prosthetic control signals. But I mean, this is real life. Usually when you use your arm, you're not just sitting at the desk, but you try to reach for a. In your cupboard.
Ben
So in that case, how do the patients you're working with React? The idea of games being part of their therapy?
Cosima
So usually people think that, for example, older players are not very tech savvy, not as good or not as interested in games. And that include health games. But that was really far from what we have experienced. So we have senior lady farmers who were rocking the our games. And a lot of our patients are actually farmers because dangerous big machines. And patients that were in like a control group and another game of ours, which is called stable hand VR, they the control group, they still wore a VR headset. But instead of being on a farm, they watched a 360 city tourist video and they complained to other patients that we had. Stationary in the ward that they wanted also to be in the farm VR intervention group because of course everybody the patients they discussed the game and they talked about how today they had repaired a tractor with their mangled fingers or stolen some chicken eggs.
Ben
I suppose make any intervention of therapeutic desirable is not is not as a clinician telling patients what they should do as part of their recovery, but having options that patients want to do and to have a desire to do it, cause you can have the motivation and built in it then more to continue and engage in that for longer. Incredible in that case, do you wanna talk more about stable hand VR in terms of where does it come from? How is it being delivered? Any research behind it as well?
Cosima
Yes, so stable hand VR is a funded research project over three years and it's a virtual reality farming game, stable hand. We are for patients with traumatic hand injuries and this was a bit of a new approach because as we have talked so much about amputees suddenly. Our patients had hands again. So it made perfect sense at the time because I was working at a clinic that had a lot of expertise in hand, replantation. And with the introduction of automatic hand tracking on the now Meta Quest headsets, we were able to leverage this technology and give patients a virtual pair of healthy hands to interact with their environment. So he wanted the patients to use to exercise their hands and fingers, and therefore a controller was out. Of the question. Because if they were holding a controller, they wouldn't be able to use their hands and fingers. That's why we were using hand tracking, which also is a bit of a challenge in itself because our patients had a varying number of fingers. So we needed to deal with that pitfall. And another key idea that we had for stable hand VR was also that patients don't see their real hand their injured hands because that makes them cautious, but instead they see healthy virtual hands and they're this kind of visual substitution allows them to attempt and achieve movement that they may feel unable to perform in real life. Which is kind of also a positive feedback loop and they could unlock more functions as they progress. Not only like in game functions, but also hand functions.
Ben
So how does the gameplay translate into the therapeutic impact of it? What are? What are you finding in terms of of the benefits for for the players taking part in stable hand?
Cosima
So we work closely together with clinicians and therapists and also patients to Co design all these games and ensuring that they're not just fun, but actually therapeutically meaningful. And we asked them for the movements the patients should perform. So we have like over 20 movements, single and compound movements, the patients can do in this virtual reality. Like plucking vegetables from a vegetable patch or. Petting a cat or cleaning a stable and these movements, these hand movements, they correspond broadly to what the patients are doing in game. We could not actually like incorporate the plugging movement as an actual plugging because we also had patients that were limited in mobility and they could not bend over or bend down, go to their knees. So we just now have the hand movements and something will happen in the background, but that is usually still very exciting for the patients and. The the weirder. The more outrageous the better.
Ben
What is the most outrageous activity that they can? Do on step one. Stay behind VR.
Cosima
Oh, there, there aren't a lot. But usually so they they. They love to complain because it's a it's a farm environment and they of course they're all farmers. And then they complain that a certain thing on the tractor does not go there and they want to put it on the other side. But that's not possible. Also, you can have a concert with frogs. And actually this is something that got inspired by the Zelda games with the movements, the directing movements. And you can also talk to a scarecrow and it's. It's a very depressive scarecrow. And we also thought, OK, maybe that is not the best approach, but patients really love talking to that depressed.
Ben
In that case, this is a. This is a clinical ongoing clinical trial cause him is. That right?
Cosima
Yes, it will ongo until June this year.
Ben
And what has been your experience so far in terms of kind of identifying grant funding, ethical approval, being able to implement therapeutic digital interventions at the hospital setting? What has been that journey for you as a, as a clinician, but also as a as a researcher?
Cosima
Applying for funding has actually been very rewarding because this is a topic that is of interest right now. Digital healthcare. Everybody wants to do it, everybody. I want to see it in their hospital and in a research setting it's also. Quite easy, so to say to do, but to have this brought to other patients, to other hospitals then you would need to go through the medical device regulation and this is something that usually breaks the neck for a lot of research projects. Even though the project and the. The study, or the product the game itself has shown to work really well. Great outcomes. Then you have to transition to a medical product which costs a lot of money, a lot of resources, lots of documentation. Then that's usually a problem. Actually stable hand we are. We are in the process of making this an available medical product with the risk class of 1. And we have all the documentation and still it's been taking us like over a year so far and it's still not out there yet. If we don't even want to make a lot of money because we're researchers, we just think it's a really cool tool and everybody should use it in their hospital.
Ben
I think this is the challenge faced by a lot of the guests we have on health points. Is there are wonderful and incredible ideas that there is also great research supporting the therapeutic benefits of these digital games and interventions, whether they're physical, tangible games or purely software for software and apps. And Pete and I talk about this a lot is how and what is the transformation that's gonna result in, in, in therapeutics and gamification just being unified. So things can scale quickly should what are arguably just video games having different types of controllers be aligned to the same classification as other medical devices. I think that discussion and debate will go on for a long time yet. Would be great to know some of the feedback you've had from your patients, your participants. If you had anything unexpected over your journey in terms of positives or negatives of their interaction and engagement with the games you're delivering.
Cosima
Something unexpected. So one patient after using Fenton May R this mixed reality with the augmented residual lymph for phantom pain.
Speaker
And.
Cosima
He tried the virtual hand. He tried the tentacle, and then he turned to me and said. Why can't he just have a screwdriver attached to his thump? Because he thought that would be much more useful. He was an engineer. I he was correct or in stable hand. We are. We had some comments from the patients that are often working. Like I said all the farms themselves in real life and they wanted to retire actually into the virtual farm. So I thought that was a great compliment.
Ben
I mean, that's on the borderline of a Black Mirror episode at that point. Is your your your therapeutic environment becomes your future retirement?
Cosima
I mean, I would love to. It's really soothing. You're surrounded by farm animals. There is nice music. If that was water splashing from the waterfall, I would stay there during my retirement.
Pete
Are you getting any feedback and impact about the effect on? Their real lives.
Cosima
Oh, yes, yes, of course. So they in this specific trial, for example for stable heavy are they stay with us for several weeks, they are in patients for let's say 5 weeks and they use this game, they play this on top of their actual rehab exercises, they're they're receiving and we can see, yes. The the exercise, like the range of motion that gets better, the force gets better, so it directly translates into clinical outcomes. And because they do this while not seeing their real hands and they push themselves to the limit of what is possible within their skill set. And that directly translates, for example, to the range of motion and also pain because they do not see their hands, they are not reminded of the pain. So sometimes patients say no, no, I cannot do this exercise. It it, it hurts too much when I bend my. Anger. But in the yard, they simply don't care. They bend the finger like nothing has happened just because they're so distracted by the exercises.
Pete
That's amazing. So you've got 2 great benefits there. One is there pushing themselves more and also they're not feeling the pain and I'm guessing does that translate it back into the real world too when they then start doing those movements?
Cosima
Actually yes. And by then we hope that they. Have mostly healed. And they there are still some. Some mutations in the finger, but they can actually go further than what the therapist also is telling them, because like oh, I could do this. In the game. Look, let me show you what is the cool thing I can do with my finger now. I mean, there are also other patients, but we that rather not use their hands and rather stay at home. But those are not the the norm.
Pete
And a final question on this is. This sounds like a way. Of training you to use what you have remaining. Is there anything in there about training to use prosthetics? And obviously the question after that is, is there a tentacle prosthetic?
Cosima
Actually. A few years ago. When I was still in Vienna at the lab with Professor Asman, he also thought about a tentacle prosthesis and that turned into an elephant trunk idea of a prestigious it has never been realised. But there are things like soft robotics that don't have a hand, they just have this. Well, soft robotic device. It's like a. Cushion. And you don't actually always need a hand. What if, like a screwdriver, is more beneficial to you? And sorry, what was the 1st?
Pete
Question it was, it was actually like does it does do the VR games and and AR games help with the prosthetics and using them as well as training your remaining? Limbs.
Cosima
So are our games like Mayo, Beats Mayo also, and also to a certain degree, Phantom they are. They use exactly the same control strategy, its control in this game as they will do later when they receive their prosthesis. So we are training them to use their prosthesis to prepare the muscles. And also to ingrain into them into their motion ability how to use their procedures when they will receive 1, because that is actually one of.
Speaker
I've been.
Cosima
The main limitations why patients do not use their prosthetics because they don't function well because they're not able to control them properly and we want to be ahead of this game to train them and then afterwards they can use it right out-of-the-box.
Pete
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Ben
Because Jimmy, you mentioned earlier about your Co creation with patients. What does that look like from from? How do you approach that Co creation that has then translate into game? Bye.
Cosima
So we build a prototype and then we go to the ward and we ask some and knowing patients if they would like to answer some questions, what we show them, we of course have an ethics proposal and everything for that. And we we also do have focus groups and we show them usually the next stage of development. And ask them if this is something that they can see themselves.
Speaker
Do.
Cosima
Also, fun fact, motion sickness. So both my software developer Michael and me, we are very susceptible to motion sickness. So we put a great deal of attention to not have too many motions in our VR game and so far out of over 150 patients, only one patients patient reported that they were nauseous.
Speaker
That's.
Ben
We could start, I think also what it highlights between you and Mike, your software developer is that sometimes you just need 2 motivated people, enough coffee or tea and just the desire to get on and do it. Because I I think these are these are how great things happen, a great idea to start the ability to just go and have the idea and prototype and go straight to the ward and then. Test an idea and kind of get feedback from from the cold face to go yes or no I would or wouldn't play this or I'd do it in this way. It means that you can iterate and adapt rapidly. I think this is the benefit of being small teams. Sometimes is you can go incredibly quick.
Cosima
Definitely that one. Of course we have less the computational manpower, but we have the benefit of direct feedback whenever we want it.
Ben
Where what you've achieved and what you're doing already, Kasim is incredible. Where do you see the games and therapeutics and the future going? How ubiquitous do you see this becoming? Do you see a future where every ward will have digital and therapeutic games on it? Is that is that the future you foresee?
Cosima
Why not? So I've been. Like, really inspired by integrating all sorts of biofeedback into gameplay and like, not just passive play, but also games that actively respond to a user's physiological signal, which is of course, very prevalent in a lot of pathologies that you have out there. And I think that holds great promise. For rehab. I've seen this mostly so far in meditation and breathing apps like for example EG and also a friend of mine, Marius Kluke a few years back, he had developed a Skyrim VR mod where he can use EEG, so brain signals to power your spells in Skyrim. And that took off quite well, so I think. We can definitely incorporate this. This is the future everybody in the world should have should have a VR headset or we should use their physiological signals. There has been research in wound dressing change with burn victims and when they are in a cold environment like Ice cave then they feel less pain. While changing the dressings on the burn wounds.
Ben
In that case, what's next for you? Do you have any exciting things on the horizon where you want to take this next?
Cosima
I actually do have something that will leverage this physiological feedback. It is called so far. Burning hands and we are working with pain patients. So it's called CRPS chronic regional pain syndrome. And what we do basically is they can still see their hands. It's it's mixed reality and we set their hands on fire and we will see what. What does that to the body? Also, we encase them with ice and we pour a protective layer of pink gel over their hands and then we are measuring all sorts of biofeedback like galvanic skin response. Like is is the patient sweating the blood oxygenation? And also EEG waves. And we not only want to see how the body is reacting to these. Burning ice and gelled hands. But we also want them to actively, like, extinguish the flames. So for pain patients that they sometimes feel burning sensations in their hands and we want to use EEG waves or brain waves. And if they concentrate enough, they can extinguish the flames and maybe our hypothesis is that will also extinguish the pain that they can feel in their hand.
Ben
That sounds absolutely fascinating. Where is that in terms of hypothesis to ideation to prototype?
Cosima
So we're basically finished with the implementation and we did a trial with 40 healthy participants. And we have made all the measurements, so the next step would be to refine the protocol and to go into a patient trial. So it it works. So so for for humans. Without any pathological diseases. So I think healthy humans are harder to trick.
Speaker
Alright.
Cosima
Than maybe patients. And some maybe are more susceptible to illusions than others.
Ben
That makes a lot of sense indeed. Have there been? Have there been any examples of other digital games or digital therapeutics you've seen in the last months or years that you think is a really good example of how gamification or serious games is being integrated into therapeutics?
Cosima
There are several companies, I think that leverage these type of games. Sometimes I think they're useful, sometimes not so much. For example, holding a. Controller for hand. Traumatic injured patients for finger rehab. Maybe not so much on the useful. Side, but there is a lot for. For sports therapy, for example. I think there is one thing I think, especially in virtual reality approaches, they should explore new possibilities that cannot be experienced in the real world and not just to simply dress up traditional rehab methods in virtual reality, but to really transform it. Because if you don't, the patients found the rehab. Exercise boring before. Chances are they will still find it boring in VR. Are and this is what I see a lot of the times with these VR exercises. So I think we should create engaging experiences that surpass the real world limitations. And that is where the real capabilities of VR or XR can be leveraged. Of those, I have not seen so many interventions in rehab yet.
Ben
In that case, are there any over the last years? Are there any kind of key Nuggets of wisdoms or key key tips or tricks that you've learned that's been really important about the not in your design, but the implementation of games and therapeutics?
Cosima
So I also do implement, so I also do code not as. Much as before. And I think a good documentation is worth it's it's it's lines in in gold. But integrating sensors like movement sensors, inertial measurement units and electrodes.
Speaker
To.
Cosima
Collect the muscle signals with pre-existing. Devices like the Meta Quest three that poses a bit of a challenge. It's not that it's impossible. But we not only want to use the devices as they come, but we really want to adapt it to our patient clientele and that's why we need to add sometimes a lot of different sensors to integrate everything. Well, if I had a word of wisdom, I think it would be what I mentioned before that do not dress up your VR as a just VR exercise, but really make it something outrageous that the patients will not expect and they will want to come back and do this over and over again.
Ben
I think make things unique. Make things weird, get people to want to show up and give them a go.
Cosima
And have people talk about it.
Pete
Yeah, that's a really interesting extra you were saying. Even the control group really want to play. The other games and that's that's what you want. You want people to voluntarily take part in more rehabilitation, don't you?
Ben
Kazuma, it's been fantastic having your own health points today. We've gone through so much and in the show notes we will link to everything you're doing in terms of your research, all the games, your profiles, it's been fantastic to to your journey in learning from existing games in the market and how adapting controls to enable people living with amputations. To engage in gameplay and building on top of that through Co designing and Co creating games with patients, living with amputations and trauma, which have led to the therapeutic benefits of gameplay, which is what you're researching, right? Now for the players in your games you've had traumatic hand injuries. The interesting elements of distraction in game play, meaning that patients are reducing their pain perceived, but also pushing the boundaries of their movement and functional. Peter recover earlier and a key takeaway from this is clearly make things outrageous, make things weird, create interest, create conversations between people playing the games, because if we can spark that motivation to take part, that's the therapeutic element which is most important because it's been great having you on the show today.
Cosima
Thank you so much and thank you for all those interesting and challenging quest. I would love. To see you again, and if you want to test anything out, please come and visit me in Germany, Berlin.
Pete
That that's great. And I think we should take her up on that because there's so much excitement in your games and. What you're coming up with, that's that's really. Inspirational. OK, but yeah, gotta be honest. Thank you very much, Kasim.